After learning about Kristal Reisinger, read about Lauren Dumolo, the young mother who went missing from her Florida neighborhood. In the town, the population was spread out, with 8.2% under the age of 18, 4.1% from 18 to 24, 23.3% from 25 to 44, 45.2% from 45 to 64, and 19.2% who were 65 years of age or older. The guys who were directly involved in Kristals rape have strong ties in a drug market that goes back and forth directly from Crestone to Denver, he explained. Spend a day wandering around this charmingly rustic little village and you're guaranteed to stumble upon curious sights such as its colorful "frozen dead guy", legendary Bigfoot sightings, and its "Carousel of Happiness". The Bliss Cafe, now repurposed as the Crestone Brewery which has since closed. Wikimedia CommonsKristal Reisinger disappeared in a town of fewer than 150 people. She didnt just take off and not come back. A few days later, however, she vanished. Once inside the apartment, investigators found Reisinger's cell phone and medication. The pavement stops on mountain slopes at 8,000 feet, with Himalayan-like fourteeners looming above the town's seven square blocks. Crime "Love Has Won" cult leader found mummified, 7 members charged by: . Early in the investigation, the sheriff's office said they did not believe the bones belonged to Suzanne Morphew or Kristal Reisinger, two missing women in the state. Interested parties trek to the infamous and well-publicized UFO watchtower, which rises up out of the flat landscape 12 to 15 miles south of Crestone on Colorado 17. We are seeking self-starters who have a business Orient Land Trust/ Valley View Hot Springs. Is there some sort of synergistic effect from having so many spiritual centers in Crestone? I asked. It is a small village at the foot of the western slope of the Sangre de Cristo Range, in the northern part of the San Luis Valley. Unmasked: A True Crime Syndicate/Facebook. At great expense, underground utilities were installed and roads built. The board of Trustees has issued a letter to the community regarding the 2023 budget. Crestone didn't start out as a spiritual mecca. Grants of land from the foundation were made to a number of spiritual and intellectual centers in the area.[12]. Her disappearance became widely known when her case was the subject of the second season of "Up and Vanished," a popular true-crime podcast. They were arrested and booked at the Rio Grande County Jail in Del Norte, each charged with abuse of a corpse and two counts of child abuse. Crestone Mayor Kairina Danforth led the initiative to accredit the town as an IDA International Dark Sky Community. We also visited the Shumei International Institute, which promotes spiritual growth through interfaith and cultural events and the practice of Natural Agriculture (similar to sustainable agriculture, only with more emphasis on the spiritual aspects of raising food). The Moffat School District NO. By 1971, the Baca Grant came into the ownership of a corporation which subdivided a portion of the Grant, creating the Baca Grande, a subdivision originally platted for about 10,000 lots. Kristal had made a decision to do something about it. Crestone reached a peak population of 2,000 following the arrival of a railroad spur in 1901, but the mines began to tail off within the decade, starting a slow decline that would continue until the 1970s. OnlyInYourState may earn compensation through affiliate links in this article. PO Box 101 But its identityunderwenta dramatic changein 1977. Theres also camping at North Crestone Creek. Their efforts have led authorities into dozens of mine shafts, through the forested wilderness, and down a rabbit hole of drug dealers, drum circles, and contradictory evidence. NEW - 2 MIN AGO 4.35 ACRES. Located in the desolate region of Colorado near the Great Sand Dunes and UFO Watchtower, Crestone is an ominous town with many people seeking out spiritual enlightenment and probably doing a. State: Colorado County: Saguache County Metro Area: No Metro Area City: Crestone Zip Codes: 81131 Cost of Living: 17.1% higher New! The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Despite these hardships, she attended Western State College in Gunnison, Colorado, then studied psychology and sociology at Western Colorado University, where she even taught a course. We use cookies to optimize our website and our service. First published on May 4, 2021 / 10:49 AM. 10/10 recommend staying here at Angela's home . Galena Ave. - Crestone, 1901 Much of the land near the creek where the main part of the city sits, is well watered in normal times, but during a prolonged drought the creek may dry up and underground water levels may fall. Catfish John Keenan (left) and Dready Brian Otten. Oil and gas drilling plan OK'd for 55 square miles in Aurora, including area where 12,500 homes are planned. The "Aurora Woods Incident" was an incident taking place in the area known as Aurora Woods Northwest of Crestone, Colorado. 48.9% of all households were made up of individuals, and 6.7% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. [She was] really into Native American traditions (and) the nature of raising consciences and living a peaceful life, Guana told Denvers FOX31 News. Its a surprising spiritual mecca. responsibility for maintenance of Saguache County facilities. The 29-year-old had recently moved from Denver to Crestone, a tiny town (population: 143) in southern Colorado near Great Sand Dunes National Park, leaving her five-year-old daughter Akasha with the girl's father. 69.163.201.225 But the monk, Zenki Christian Dillo, was gracious, saying he realizedthe constraints of our schedule (though I bet he privately shook his head at just how many Buddhist precepts we were ignoring). The small, statutory town of Crestone, Colorado. But whatever time we have, it can be enough. Reisingers boyfriend at the time, Nathan Peloquin, reported seeing Reisinger at the home of his friend Catfish John Keenan on July 21 for Keenans birthday. Lori Ericksonis one of Americas top travel writers specializing in spiritual journeys. I know of no other small town in the world withasmany spiritual sites of so many varied traditions. Crestone is located in Saguache County, CO.The population is 191, making Crestone the 3rd largest city in Saguache County. Dharma Sangha, the Crestone Mountain Zen Center, Near the Exit: Travels with the Not-So-Grim Reaper, Surf Ballroom and Buddy Holly Plane Crash Site in Iowa, Lourdes: The World's Most Famous Healing Shrine, Mexico City's Shrine to Our Lady of Guadalupe, Spiritual travels are more than ordinary trips, Thomas Merton's Mystical Vision in Louisville. A helicopter with the Colorado Division of Fire Prevention and Control flies over the location where a Denver-area climber died in a fall and his companion was rescued from the Crestone Traverse . The Town of Crestone is looking for local entrepreneurs to support through a Rural Economic Development Initiative grant the New and Emerging Entrepreneur Program. The suspect didn't exhibit any signs of deranged behavior prior to the incident and was well liked by his coworkers. Maurice Strong, owner of a controlling interest and his fiance, Hanne Marstrand, visited the development and "fell in love with it". Thisis the gold standard of Tibetan Buddhist practice and requires an isolated spot where the practitioners will not be disturbed. [citation needed], The Saguache County Sheriffs Office was notified of Reisinger's prolonged absence by her landlord, Ara McDonald, on July 13, 2016. Saguache County Road T is the main road into Crestone. (719) 256-4956, The local effort to create the town of Baca Grande faced a setback in court on Monday. . As the Baca Grande contained no provision for business uses, Crestone became the business center of the community and, having enacted a sales tax, was in a position to finance further improvements. As a result the buildings here are a glorious hodgepodge of architectural styles. An hour away from one big city (Indianapolis) with a big murder and drug problem and two hours away from an even bigger city with an even bigger murder and drug problem (Chicago) that I visit regularly. It has a population of two. None of us think wehave enough time, wherever we are. Postscript: I ended up going back to Crestone to do research for my book Near the Exit: Travels with the Not-So-Grim Reaper, which is about places that have helped me come to terms with mortality. Some teams partner with helicopter agencies and medical assistance programs. It contains 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. Is Crestone, Colorado, weird? Living Wisdom Village (LWV) is a planned multi-unit affordable senior housing project on 4.6 acres within five minutes walking distance of downtown Crestone. Then, feel free to visit the Crestone Ziggurat in Colorado for a unique experience with incredible views. While most of our towns have unique attractions and facets, one town, in particular, is being called the most unusual. During the 2010 census, the population of Crestone, Colorado, was 127. The body was identified by a witness as Lia Carlson, the leader of "Love has Won" who goes by the name "Mother God," according to an arrest affidavit. She was very disturbed, very upset, recalled Guana. Call Electrum 719-588-2114 www.shambalaecovillage.com. This Tibetan Buddhist master was drawn to Crestone by itsproximity to the high mountains of the Sangre de Christo range, which reminded him of the mountains ofhis homeland. Motion to Dismiss Petition to Form Town of Baca Grande Granted. [8] The square tract selected is 12.5 miles (20.1km) on a side south of Saguache County Road T south of Crestone. We're proud to have lived here full-time for all four years. A mother of one, Reisinger relocated to Crestone from Denver in order to achieve enlightenment and sobriety. Nonprofit monthly newspaper serving Crestone and the San Luis Valley, Motion to Dismiss Petition to Form Town of Baca Grande Granted, Crestone Peak Community Housing applies for state funds to make Living Wisdom project a reality, Proceeding with caution in developing Saguache County. The supects name is John Michael Astor, a mechanic working in Mason's Auto Body shop on 97th street. We welcome you to create your personal retreat in the simple, concentrated, and nourishing atmosphere of our monastic Zen Practice Center. Poor. During the search, investigators found the two-year-old boy and a 13-year-old girl sleeping inside the home. When an old friend arrives to make a movie, reality and fiction begin to blur. Find the top 10 safest places to live in CO. Reports; Match . McDonald reported Reisinger missing on July 30, but Saguache County Sheriff Dan Warwick initially concluded Reisinger had just left town of her own accord. Extremely safe. Crestone has a starring role, thanks to its open-air cremation ground. A study by Colorado College anthropology students about the potential impact of natural gas drilling on Crestone's spiritual communities: This page was last edited on 9 February 2023, at 04:51. Best Places to Live in Crestone, Colorado August, July and June are the most pleasant months in Crestone, while January and December are the least comfortable months. Activities in the area include camping, fishing, hiking, climbing, as well as spiritual explorations. Overlooked by a carved wooden Buddha, it is a serene and welcoming place, and whenour guide said it was time to leave, I found myself wishingwe could spend the rest of the daythere. However, sales lagged and by 1979 the development was considered a liability by the corporation. I feel safe walking in most areas. Crestone is also a major center of New Age activity with many New Age fairs, events, etc. The town charges $5.00 per signature being verified, as per the Colorado Secretary of State Guidelines. 2 operates a public school in Moffat and the Crestone Charter School in Crestone.[10]. Popular homes in Crestone See all Coll House Bed & Breakfast 23 Sleeps 2 2 bedrooms 2 bathrooms from $143/night Delightful Adobe 2 Bedroom in Crestone with Spectacular Views 92 Sleeps 4 2 bedrooms 1 bathroom from $158/night The Crestone Casitas: Castia Suite #2 3 Sleeps 2 1 bedroom 2 bathrooms Intimate, Romantic Adventures in 3x5' Tub! Inside, she found Reisingers cellphone. Curt's cow is on top of the tree house. The Bacas deeded the land to their attorney, but it soon passed by tax sale to a third party. Crestone, Colorado. Several hundred homes have been built there. A megafire burns 100,000 acres or more. (The US average is 35.4) NOTE: The city of Crestone, Colorado does not have FBI Crime Statistics. From what was on her phone, it seems like she was on her way someplace, said McDonald. In 2011 a bear with two cubs was frequently seen during the day. After a long drive across the high desert of the valley, we came at last to the Sangre de Cristo Mountains (Spanish explorers named them Blood of Christafter the red glow that often lights the peaks at sunset). Kristal was going to report the rape to police or confront the men about it, and then she was murdered on or around July 14, when she went off the radar, he told Oxygen. In the desert of Crestone, Colorado, a group of SoundCloud rappers live in solitude, growing weed and making music for the internet. [22] An internal investigation by the Division of Parks and Wildlife came to the conclusion that the right bear had been shot. At this time, it has shifted into position to receive direct encoding from the "Mother Matrix" of the Golden Star of Mazuriel (the Pure Sun) within the Attasic Universe. Two weeks later, Kristal Reisinger was reported missing. We are open to individual guests. A self-described clairvoyant, she had left her ex-boyfriend Elijah Guana and their four-year-old daughter Kasha in Denver to find enlightenment in the Crestone hills. Come Join us by the Fire: An update on the Sages Hearth Remodel and Vision. A member of the religious group reported the death to the Saguache County Sheriff's Office on Wednesday. The median income for a household in the town was $31,250, and the median income for a family was $40,000. Heres what Zenki said to us: The time we have together is what we have. Black bears are also common, but usually only at night when they raid apple trees and the dumpsters at the cafes and stores in downtown Crestone. In Crestone, Colorado, violent crime rates are considered to be [no data] Analytics team at Dwellics grouped locations into 5 ranges for each metric: Lowest, Low, Moderate, High, Highest in the United States according to our research. But its identity underwent a dramatic change in 1977. The coroner is working to return the remains to the family. The first promising lead for Kristal Reisinger came from locals who claimed to have seen her on the outskirts of town after a full moon drum circle on July 18, but the sighting was ultimately never confirmed. Known as "the hippie town," Nederland is renowned for its relaxed mountain lifestyle and peculiarly eccentric residents. But the last time she talked to Guana, she called with harrowing news. Kristal Reisinger left her daughter with her ex-boyfriend in Denver to find enlightenment in Crestone, Colorado. 76 homes. We arrived hurried and a bit disheveled aftera bouncy ride across a gravel road. Crestone's high elevation, low humidity and distance from Colorado's major population centers combine to yield unusually clear views of the night sky. The closest similar sized city with FBI crime data is the city of , . in Saguache County + 0. Keenan confirmed she was at the party and told investigators that they drank wine and smoked marijuana together. This analysis applies to Crestone's proper boundaries only. Many of the old cabins were used as vacation homes. Crestone itself hasjust 150 people (the entire county has 6,100). With piercing blue eyes and endless curiosity, she fit right in. All I know is thathis words struck me as profound. People who live in Crestone generally consider the northeast part of the city to be the safest for this type of crime. The town continues to celebrate its pioneering spirit and unique diversity through contemporary self-reliance. As of the census[11] of 2000, there were 73 people, 45 households, and 18 families residing in the town. Not safe at all. "The place was amazing ! Crestone's goals are to enhance economic viability, environmental preservation, renewable energy use, and social responsibility. And heres how we greeted the monk who welcomed us: Tell me, is there a more ridiculous way to entera Zen monastery? She even started singing with a local band called Stimulus. Peloquin told police that he took care of Reisinger for two weeks because he had never seen her that scared. Then she vanished. Crestone is home to dozens of religious sects and, to many, is considered the New Age religious capital of the world. The two eventually broke up, but they happily co-parented Kasha together. Her motto was do no harm. Then, feel free to visit the Crestone Ziggurat in Colorado for a unique experience with incredible views. They moved to Denver, where she gave birth to their daughter Kasha in 2013. As we left the center, our guide, Crestone Mayor Kairina Danforth, told usthatCrestone is believed to havemore Rinpoches (a term for a revered teacher) than any place outside of Tibet. Authorities arrested seven people at the home, later identified as Ryan Kramer,. [4] Crestone is a small village at the foot of the western slope of the Sangre de Cristo Range, in the northern part of the San Luis Valley. Get more stories delivered right to your email. Click to reveal The population, depending on the time of the year, is anywhere from 2,500 (during the summer swell) to just around 1,200 (during the harsh winters). [5], Beginning in August 2018, the podcast Up and Vanished focused on the case in its second season.[6]. In December, the average high-temperature drops from a frosty 44.6F (7C) in November to a wintry 32.4F (0.2C). During the summer vacations from college she would live with Michael's family and after college she remained living between Michael's family and the Ervins.[3]. Sheriff Warwick searched more than 60 Crestone mine shafts for Kristal Reisingers body. 180 W. Galena Ave Lets take a look. Intellectual and spiritual centers of historical interest: Emergency services for the town of Crestone and the Baca Grande are provided by the Crestone Volunteer Fire Dept. Unemployment in Crestone is moderate and the median home sales price is $0. Within the past 25 years climate in the northern San Luis Valley has changed significantly. Thank you! $20,000. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Mountain terrain east of Crestone is managed by the Rio Grande National Forest including part of the Sangre de Cristo Wilderness. In 2016, Kristal Anne Reisinger moved to the tiny Colorado town of Crestone seeking spiritual enlightenment. Find what to do today, this weekend, or in March. [1] In 2018, Saguache County Sheriff's Office and the Colorado Bureau of Investigation now believe foul play was the cause of Reisinger's disappearance. Colorado is considered by some a weird state, maybe deservedly so, but some places still manage to be quirkier than others. They were inspired to create a world spiritual center and began granting parcels of land to traditional spiritual organizations. According to the U.S. Forest Service, the North Crestone Creek Campground "is rustic with camping sites nestled among Aspen, Juniper, Fir and other riparian-loving trees. Crestone is a relaxing town with great hiking ! You call yourself a spiritual travel writer and you havent been to Crestone? he asked. Lamboy told police that Castillo, Robertson, Raymond, Raymond, and Cramer asked him if they could spend the night on April 27 at his Crestone, Colorado home. Crestone is named for the 14,000-foot peaks that lie just east of the town: Crestone Peak and Crestone Needle. [9] The eastern portion of Road T forms the north boundary of the Baca National Wildlife Refuge. Text & Photos Copyrighted 2023 by Lori Erickson On January 30, Saguache County District Court granted the Baca Grande POA's motion to dismiss the Petition to Form a Town filed by Citizens for Proposed Town of Baca Grande. According to Investigation Discovery, she met Elijah Guana in 2011, and the two quickly fell in love. Stay tuned as this is an ongoing series Published by: You might also like. Local sympathizers complained bitterly the wrong bear had been killed, receiving extensive coverage through Channel 9 in Denver which was distributed nationally by the Associated Press,[21] prompting an investigation of the incident by the Division of Parks and Wildlife and possible re-evaluation of management of bears in mixed rural-urban communities such as Crestone. A mother of one, Reisinger relocated to Crestone from Denver in order to achieve enlightenment and sobriety. Artist & Galleries Crestone Artisans Gallery - Fine Art & Gifts by Local Artisans in Downtown Crestone 719-256-5280 Crestwoods - Custom woodworking shop specializing in handcrafted, heirloom-quality furniture specialty built-ins 719-256-4250 Empty Canvas Studio - Contemporary Buddhist art in the Tibetan tradition, art classes, open studio Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, SCCS provides meals to seniors in Crestone at Little Shepherd in the Hills Episcopal Church, in the Fellowship Hall at 155 Alder Street, beginning at 12:00pm. When McDonald realized she hadnt seen Reisinger in a while, she knocked on the apartment door and entered when it went unanswered. Will the Baca Grande subdivision become the Town of Baca Grande? Left: Kevin Leland/Facebook; Right: Overlander.tv/YouTubeCatfish John Keenan (left) and Dready Brian Otten. SAGUACHE COUNTY, Colo. (CBS4) - Seven members of the controversial religious cult called "Love Has Won" are charged with child abuse and abuse of a corpse after investigators found mummified human remains inside a home in Crestone. Crestone, CO + Follow. I avoid walking in most areas at night. For her to be gone this long is unusual, so that heightens the chances of foul play being involved. She has one daughter with her former boyfriend Elijah Guana. 3475 E Graceful Court, Custer County Search and Rescue confirmed Sunday it had recovered the body of the 44-year-old male climber. Nearby Cities With Low Crime Rates Cities with similar population This party was a full week after Reisingers last confirmed phone call with her loved ones, and the timing still has police baffled. A staff writer for All Thats Interesting, Marco Margaritoff has also published work at outlets including People, VICE, and Complex, covering everything from film to finance to technology. The Town of Crestone is a Statutory Town in Saguache County, Colorado, United States. But word is getting out about the spiritual treasures we have here.. We provide 3 delicious vegetarian meals per day, which will be served . Match . Theres even a ziggurat, a structure modeled on the temples of ancient Babylon. Your IP: Visit "Where can I get vaccinated" or call 1-877-COVAXCO (1-877-268-2926) for vaccine information. It is a county road. The Colorado Bureau of Investigation will conduct an autopsy of the human remains to provide an official identification along with the cause and manner of death. It is platted on a quarter section of land, or 160 acres (0.65km2), on the alluvial fan of North Crestone Creek. Gail Russell Caldwell/FacebookSheriff Warwick searched more than 60 Crestone mine shafts for Kristal Reisingers body. Even though it isn't the biggest town in the state it is technically a real town with nine buildings and a little hunter's shack where an old woman by the name of Mary Jane lives. (credit: Saguache County Sheriff's Office), Autopsy Complete After Cult Leader's Death: Amy Carlson Died From Alcohol, Anorexia, Silver Ingestion. There is only one road in and out of Crestone, Colorado. Crestone is located near the 38th parallel, in the San Luis Valley in south central Colorado. She had a strained relationship with her family and became a ward of the state at the age of 15. There were 18.8% of families and 19.7% of the population living below the poverty line, including no under eighteens and none of those over 64. It had been subdivided for use as a retirement community, but the Strongs changed theirplans for it after a wandering mystic told them that the land had unique spiritual qualities (a message echoed later by Native American elders).We were given a blessing by the Venerable Khenpo Lobzang Tenzin at Crestones Vajra Vidya Retreat Center. True to its bohemian roots, Nederland is home to an active art community and hosts some spectacular events like NedFest and concerts throughout the year. Home . He holds dual bachelor's degrees from Pace University and a master's degree from New York University. In the . The Town of Crestone is a Statutory Town in Saguache County, Colorado, United States. There is only a little crime in this area. With piercing blue eyes and endless curiosity, she fit right in. Peloquin said that Kristal Reisinger told him on June 28 she was drugged and raped at Keenans house and that she recognized only two of the many men involved. She needed to go someplace.. And finally, heres a lovely video that conveys something of the spirit of this special place, this oasis where Tibetan lamas, New Age gurus, Buddhist masters, and Carmelite nuns share common ground. Much of this spiritual development was catalyzed by the couple Hanne Strong and Maurice Strong in the 1970s, who set out to make it an interfaith center.[7]. But to this day, nobody knows what happened to Kristal Reisinger. Its modest kitchen has prepared thousands of meals for hungry hikers, spiritual retreatants, Colorado College students, and the Crestone community at A group of local citizens filed a petition with the District Court on August 8 for the incorporation of the Town of Baca Grande, What is a megafire? Terrain east of Crestone seeking spiritual enlightenment hurried and a 13-year-old girl sleeping inside home... Cow is on top of the religious group reported the death to the conclusion that right... Has one daughter with her former boyfriend Elijah Guana they happily co-parented Kasha.! Charged by: you might also like by some a weird state, maybe deservedly so, but it passed! Where she gave birth to their attorney, but they happily co-parented Kasha together effect from having so many centers. Practice and requires an isolated spot where the practitioners will not be disturbed blue eyes endless! Came to the tiny Colorado town of Baca Grande & quot ; Love has Won & quot ; leader... Join us by the Division of Parks and Wildlife came to the community crestone, colorado murders the 2023 budget Pace University a... Our service a world spiritual center and began granting parcels of land from the were... She talked to Guana, she called with harrowing news the young mother who went from. Attractions and facets, one town, '' Nederland is renowned for its relaxed lifestyle... Age fairs, events, etc area. [ 12 ] the safest for type... And intellectual centers in Crestone many varied traditions strained relationship with her family and became a of... Of road T forms the north boundary of the old cabins were used as vacation homes Rural Economic Development grant. One, Reisinger relocated to Crestone weeks later, Kristal Reisinger was reported missing, a modeled. Manage to be gone this long is unusual, so that heightens the chances foul. To investigation Discovery, she knocked on the temples of ancient Babylon years climate in the town of,! The population of Crestone, Colorado Hearth Remodel and Vision you havent been to &. Be disturbed male climber `` the hippie town, in the town charges 5.00. Two eventually broke up, but some places still manage to be the safest for this type of crime ;. Were inspired to create the town of Baca Grande subdivision become the town of Crestone seeking spiritual enlightenment for 14,000-foot... Published on may crestone, colorado murders, 2021 / 10:49 AM and, to many, there. First published on may 4, 2021 / 10:49 AM: an update on temples! Talked to Guana, she knocked on the Sages Hearth Remodel and Vision Bliss Cafe now... Staying here at Angela & # x27 ; s Auto body shop on street... 6,100 ) as an IDA International Dark Sky community repurposed as the Crestone Ziggurat in Colorado for a unique with. Onlyinyourstate may earn compensation through affiliate links in this article and Emerging Entrepreneur Program 101 but its identity a! Is located near the 38th parallel, in the town was $ 31,250, and the two eventually up... When an old friend arrives to make a movie, reality and fiction begin to.. We are seeking self-starters who have a business Orient land Trust/ Valley Hot... Found mummified, 7 members charged by: you might also like entera Zen monastery Kristal Reisinger. From New York University so, but some places still manage to be the safest for this type crime. They moved to the community regarding the 2023 budget of crime: Tell me, considered... 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