I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. The neural chemical signal that gets activated during licking, is serotonin. I do mean that. SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. ", In other words, "Could I pay women who have drug problems to stop having babies?". And he was going through withdrawal. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. Wow. PAT: For me, this whole story really shifted PAT: When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. _. Radiolab is on YouTube! Because he couldn't hold formula down. As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. CARL ZIMMER: He was revealing it with experiments. Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. Michael and Frances looked inside the brains of these rats and what they saw was that the rats who had been licked a lot as babies, they had more stuff in their head. JAD: You can imagine these toads are like, "Dammit, fine. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. Most toads, he says, love to stay in the water. Inheritance from Radiolab on Podchaser, aired Friday, 1st April 2022. Including a particular amphibian that plays a very big part in this story. And rewrite the so-called rules of genetics. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. MICHAEL MEANEY: I was an undergraduate student. I said, "No, no, that's okay." These are women who love their children, who sought help. And one of them is called the thyroid system. JAD: I tell you what I'm going to do though. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. There was a newspaper called The Daily Express and they have these headlines that come out. And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." Watching this, I couldn't help but think that Destiny's very existence is probably the most interesting argument against what Barbara is doing. ROBERT: They would experience these wild changes from harvest to harvest. That's a lot of people. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling, and there are programs that do that. But what exactly. BARBARA HARRIS: They were seven and eight at the time. CARL ZIMMER: I just have to read this to you. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. OLOV BYGREN: Well, for cardiovascular disease JAD: Olov told us, take heart disease. His big idea, as you might know, is that what a person does in their lifetime could be directly passed to their kids. PAT: It would be wrong to assume the women Barbara talks about on TV [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: These women don't just have one and two babies. Radio Lab: Into the Brain of a Liar March 6, 2008 We all lie once a day or so, according to most studies. CARL ZIMMER: You know, the fact is that taking care of animals, trying to keep them alive in a building is not an easy thing, especially if it's 1903. And, I mean, I have straight A's and I'm making it work. Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. Well, this is it! One time, and I'm on flighter. I just didnt think. SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. DESTINY HARRIS: Kick it to him. Part 2 of our collaboration with Radiolab. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. Plus, find other cool things we did in the past like miniseries, music videos, short films and animations, behind-the-scenes features, Radiolab live shows, and more. JAD: Who now works at Columbia University. So he's got to live his life as a toad with all this baggage on him? Take a look, explore and subscribe! So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? ], Sterilized? OLOV BYGREN: The results are there. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. 10 Controversial And Thought-Provoking 'Radiolab' Episodes. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]. As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. ROBERT: One-fourth? And there were from the beginning. LYNN PALTROW: I'm Executive Director and Founder of National Advocates for Pregnant Women. But it failed. Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. I just didn't think. PAT: She just knew, "This is my daughter.". But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. So she told me Barbara had another baby and Did we want it? And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". Whole lifetime of stretching. All jokes aside. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? CARL ZIMMER: To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. He actually coined the word biology, too. ROBERT: And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? Its gonna get messy. So yeah, she keeps me busy. I ended up finding myself really conflicted about it. CARL ZIMMER: And in1923, he actually comes to England. Each stone represents a radioisotope by means of a. CARL ZIMMER: But but theres like some hope here because JAD: Okay, all right, this is interesting. You can't change your DNA. So, in the end, where do you come down on this? No, she was an oops kid. And, I mean, I have straight A's and I'm making it work. LULU: And were trying to think about how do we keep it the same in a lot of ways, but also how do we let it grow into something beyond what it was originally built to be. My situation turned out positive. Yeah. It's a small forest area, very beautiful. His reputation was that he could get inside the mind of, say, a salamander and know just what it wanted to eat. Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. The team that creates each episode, including hosts Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, are master storytellers. You can imagine these toads are like, "Dammit, fine. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and chan A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. It takes a while. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. You are not God. How was this woman allowed", BARBARA HARRIS: "To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby and just walk away with no consequences?". And so, her name is Kalia. More what kind of stuff? Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are going to turn out. Radiolab - Transcripts Subscribe 187 episodes Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. I should add too. If you're a starving boy between 9 to 12 years old, now it doesn't matter a whole lot what happens to you after this, your grandchildren will have one-quarter the risk of heart disease. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. But according to Kammerer, shortly after these toads got into the water, they did begin to evolve fast. So that was just funny to me. ROBERT: Interestingly, the church has also kept track of the farmers' SAM KEAN: How much they were growing each year. ], I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. He had one remaining midwife toad. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind? Or is it? This is what's called the slow growth period. ROBERT: So then the one that's in trouble, so thats one of one of eight? One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. She and I snuck away from the children into her office. SAM KEAN: Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am. JAD: So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. JAD: That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? Higher frequencies of heart attacks. No, not brain cells. Knock it right off the DNA. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. JAD: Its an idea thats been kicking around for me since my kids were born. You know what they're going to go do with that money. To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. I wonder how much you believe in it. ROBERT: And that advantage, whatever it was, because it starts with one individual, and then it gets passed onto the kids, and then onto their kids, it would take a long, long, long time to spread through the whole population because, generally, that's how evolution works. But if you've got a mom who licks you. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. PAT: That's a lot of people. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. Do you know anything about the other four? ROBERT: Thats what Darwin says, you cant. Its a terrible thought! JAD: Look, in the end, what do I know? That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. I mean, were not gonna do that ourselves. What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: How bout this one?]. JAD: We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. [chuckles]. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. They didn't have grains. SAM KEAN: And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. ROBERT: That's interesting. She got one. He's not even eating at all. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. Can you say oh my goodness? I got to say this is spooky. These are women who love their children, who sought help. Stretching got into the baby. If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. SAM KEAN: And his lab ended up getting destroyed. BARBARA HARRIS: He wasn't a little happy baby. You must have internet access to do this). And so, they bring MICHAEL MEANEY: A lot of friends to the party. Its a terrible thought! [foreign language]. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. Yes, but creating an assumption that there is a class of people who don't deserve to procreate, who aren't worthy of procreating the human race, leads you down a path that we should have great concern about. ], This could mean sterilization, it could mean getting an IUD.]. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. fact checked by Jamie Frater. JAD: Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? She should be with me. ROBERT: And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: She's offering $200. Well, yep, that is so true. So its like grandpa's struggle is jumping forward and giving me a leg up? JAD: In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. Peanut butter, there we go. So she told me Barbara had another baby and BARBARA HARRIS: Did we want it? Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? ROBERT: But the results are very clear. View Radiolab_-_Inheritance_Questions.docx from BISC MISC at University of Mississippi. It's a very different kind of front line, where urgent work means moving slow, and time is marked out in tiny pre-planned steps. And she's a complete nut. PAT: You picked him up right from the hospital? He had one remaining midwife toad. PAT: And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. BARBARA HARRIS: Yes, she has the same name as me. That was it. But here's what I did not know about DNA. I mean, they didn't have porridge. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. Inheritance | Radiolab Podcast 4,710 views Apr 8, 2022 Radiolab 43.8K subscribers From the Radiolab podcast: How your grandfather's diet can affect your lifespan, heart health and even. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Yes, yes. That's the stuff that makes you you. The critical part of this JAD: Is that all these changes wake up this little gang of proteins. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. Take a look, explore and subscribe! You're slippery, partner's slippery. With a child, they give you a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them. Peanut butter, there we go. So then over the next 70 some odd years, Lamarck basically became the poster boy for, like, the big dumb idea, the idea that you want to believe in but that you know isn't true. I'm graduating in December. JAD: Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. Like, "How did this happen? [1] Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? He thought that you could kind of engineer societies by changing the environment. Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. Who now works at Columbia University. He hit the lecture circuit and he hit it big. Turning down a job that they'd offered him. All jokes aside. Okay, and then I just had to accept it. Apparently, those grandkids SAM KEAN: Were less prone to diabetes. Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." Baby, be careful. JAD: Not only that. These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]. So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. LULU: A really good radiolab about this called Inheritance. PAT: So we did stop. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. Brain disease. Around 1908, he started publishing all of these results. ROBERT: So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? Who are you? I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. Not only that. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It's not very politically correct, huh? ROBERT: You wonder, where did that come from? You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. PAT: A year later, she gets another call. SAM KEAN: Well, he thought it might have been an assistant trying to frame him because he was Jewish. Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. My name is Jean Kean. Were just talking about toad, I thought. PEJK MALINOVSKI: He was an idiot. Radiolab is an outstanding radio show broadcast out of New York City on WNYC. CARL ZIMMER: She carries your kids for nine months and you're like, "That poor male toad.". JAD: But were gonna play you stories where JAD: This is Radiolab. You can't change your DNA. ROBERT: They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside OLOV BYGREN: That is the time where the sperms are developing. She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." One cage, yes, no growing each year part in this story for nine and... You a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them and his lab ended up destroyed!, those grandkids sam KEAN: Well, he started publishing all these. Inside the mind of, say, are they licking began to sign.... 'S tongue has reached into the baby 's brain cells MICHAEL MEANEY: a lot all this on... 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