how bad are restricted view seats her majesty's theatre

He portrays the Phantom as autistic, and he had all these mannerisms that I picked up on straight away. He completely lacked stage presence, had no voice to speak of and overdid the histrionics to the point that the Phantom became a caricature rather than a sympathetic figure. If you ring for tickets and talk to the theatre direct and see the seating plan you could be ok. They are mainly surly or uninterested and as for policing the use of phones or disruptive patrons - well, they may as well not be there (can you tell I am not tolerant of people with no theatre etiquette!!). magic!!!! Good seats for the lower priced tickets. Phantom of the Opera, 22Oct2017, I knew I would have a restriced view but it wasn't too bad. We sat in the Stalls in row D, seats 9 and 10. Brittany Get directions to Her Majesty's Theatre It had me in tears and goosebumps in parts. I may even go as far as to say that Earl's voice is more powerful and his performance is better than Mr Crawford! ___________________________, I am demanding a refund for the two tickets I purchased through lastminute.com for the 14th February 2012 performance of Phantom. Now I have see the Phantom just over 10 times now - he is far below the standard of any other Raoul I have ever seen. I was sitting front row centre (B13 and 14) and found these seats to be very good, experiencing no problems at all. If anyone in front of you leans forward, they completely obscure your view and you have quite an area of stage left cut off from view. But inside those venues, not all seats are created equal. Really Theatremonkey, stop being bland and enjoy the creativity! Best are B 13 and 14. Superb show straight from London's West End. For those who expect a traditional musical, do not go here. I had to head-bob most of the night. I do admit that the first 2 scenes I hadn't a clue what was going on, but after the Phantom makes his first appearance it makes sense. He evoked a lot of sympathy in the role. ___________________, I went to see this a few weeks ago with a very open mind as I normally prefer something light and breezy and didn't think I was going to enjoy it-but I did!! I really cannot praise the show enough. We were allocated seats in the Grand Circle; K22 and 23. Overall the Phantom of the Opera is a must see, even for those who have never taken in a West End show before. Please take the credit card used for the booking and the Ticketmaster booking reference number as proof of purchase. If you're in the stalls you won't see the chandelier fall or like below the knee on everyone. Dj vu! Needless to say when we see this production again Mr. Owen-Jones has a lot of convincing to do. They join Matt Blaker as Raoul and Kelly Glyptis as Carlotta, Matt Harrop as Monsieur Firmin, Adam Linstead as Monsieur Andr, Greg Castiglioni as Ubaldo Piangi, Francesca Ellis as Madame Giry and Ellie Young as Meg Giry. Paid 25 for top price tickets from See Tickets so a good deal. Maybe at off-peak times it's not worth queuing? Looking at, and listening to, those sitting around me, I rather got the impression that it has become nothing more than a tourist attraction that has to be seen on a visit to London, like Buckingham Palace or Piccadilly Circus. My only word of caution would be take a light jacket, the air conditioning is too good!!. The view of the stage was excellent, as was the view of the top of the theatre, we had a great sight of The Phantom during his performance in 'The Gods'. I think all the Manchester Front of House staff should be sent to London to be trained! You can't miss the beautiful, street-facing entrance, and although there is no designated drop off area, cars can pause to drop off passengers nearby on Grote Street. This theatre is in need of a massive refurb. Unfortunately, the audience seemed as badly behaved as ever at this show - one woman sat behind me was munching crisps during the first act, whilst a man sat behind me was translating the show for his friend. ___________________________. The cast sounded like a train wreck when they all sang different lines at once. proof that an orchestra and Europop are hardly mutually exclusive. Our biggest mistake with this show was not to note the seat numbers to avoid. Please don't forget this was written long before the rest of the show at a time when the aim of the project was still a parody rather the thick and heady romantic spectacle that it became. It would be nice if a soundtrack was available of the current cast. I don't think we missed a thing. _____________________, Thought I'd drop you a line with regard to my most recent trip to London to finally catch "Phantom," a show that I've wanted to witness for a long time but not enough to fork out for the always-top price and hard-to-get-without-booking-early seats! Arrived 9am, about 15 people in front. The grand circle is only good if you are in the front few rows, but the worst seats in this theatre are actually the back of the stalls. Save your money for the tour, guys - at least they *have to* keep that one sharp. After one emotional rollercoaster of a show ('Ghost') I went on to my next, Phantom. I left at interval. Is the view actually restricted from the Restricted View sitting area or is it ok? Our seats were Royal Circle B34-35 right on the outside of the row, clearly without full view of the stage as stated in some correspondence. I feel bad for the people I'd seen queuing who were in worse seats further back! They work so hard to make the show one of the best I have ever been lucky enough to see. So if anything is happening higher up the stage you cannot see it. The storyline is cringing to say the least, but romantic in the smallest sense, and the image that is associated with Phantom is one of love. Go see this man in this role before he leaves. It was a dear wish of mine to go to see Phantom, and for my birthday I was treated by the family to the show. I can't wait to see Love Never Dies! Best seats are dress circle A 19 and 20. Would definitely sit here again but would be more wary of B11 as that seat seemed more behind the conductor than I was - definitely worth the green rating on the seating plan. At that time you heard her voice only over the speakers and not coming from the stage as before (I was very close). I had seen it once before, years ago, and she had never seen it. Christine was one of the only redeeming qualities. The tickets were 40 each, reduced from 55 each as part of a Christmas offer; I would have happily paid full price given the quality of the seats and of the show. I was so far away from the stage that I felt like I couldn't be further away from the action. Brilliant show was well worth going to Aberdeen to see this. I will agree though on one thing. Evening Performance on Monday 28th November 2016. and didn't push any extras or merchandise at all. 855-315-0431 Concerts Bad Bunny Billie Eilish Bon Jovi Coldplay Dua Lipa Elton John In general, it is best to get into the centre of any seating block, as some side seats can be very much on the side. Restricted View Seats Often, the view isn't as bad as it sounds like on paper, and so buying these seats are very much worth it. The material has been carefully compared I have the soundtrack of the original, but I must say, the present Phantom knocks spots of Michael Crawford. None of them deserved to have such wonderful roles in such a wonderful musical. I have seen a number of West End musicals and I have to say that not one of them has even come close to the sheer brilliance of Phantom. A hideously deformed musician enjoys chasing a talented young lady singer around the stage. Well, what can I say? Sudbury, Suffolk. Since The Phantom of the Opera premiered in 1986, the musical continues to wow West End audiences with its tale of dark romance, jealousy . My biggest gripe is that the great singing that one would have every right to expect from an "opera-based" show is virtually nonexistent. ________________________, I was on holiday with my family all the way from Brisbane Australia and me and my sister went to see "Phantom of the Opera". The flares were startling and I could feel the heat from them, the chandelier was scary, I would recommend these seats anytime. Only problem was too high up, but managed to get shifted, which was thanks to the staff of the theatre, This is the version of our website addressed to speakers of English in Australia. I phoned the See Tickets box office number the day before I went (as the theatre does not have its own telephone line) to check that you could purchase day seats like other theatres in London. She fits the part perfectly. However, the Grand Circle does give you good views of the Phantom up to his tricks which is quite good fun to see. His Majesty's Theatre. Swansea Usually highly talented and skilled as they need to learn many roles in the show very precisely and may take over at a moment's notice. You only miss a slight amount of action far left of the stage but nothing too noticeable. A word about the staff - I would have thought that faced with the monotony of dealing with the same tourist crowd with the same familiar music they would lose a bit on the service front, not a bit of it. I find it hard to see the discerning person finding much appeal in Phantom of the Opera. 18th November 2011, 7:30pm The only understudy was Christine Daae which was played by Tabitha Webb. John Owen-Jones was particularly great as the Phantom - his voice was amazing, and the finale where he tells Christine and Raoul to leave him was devastating! Otherwise they were excellent seats. I'd recommend this seat, even for a first timer, as long as they are not a grump, and are a theatre fan who doesn't mind a really close view with a bit of a restriction. A restricted view means that you may be unable to see the entire stage from the specified seats. We sell these seats because for many fans a restricted/side view is . The sound wraps around you, and the sweat on the forehead of the first violinist feels close enough to mop. This means that your view of the stage may be partially blocked. In fact the whole cast were just brilliant, I could watch this show over and over again if given the chance. VDOMDHTMLtml> Her Majesty's Theatre - London VIP Box & Suites Find wonderful Her Majesty's Theatre - London VIP Box & Suites for your next event. There is no allocated seating, either, so there is often a bit of a wild stampede for good seats as soon as the curtain parts. Go and see it, if you're around and be sure you book good tickets to enhance the experience. He is a true gentleman and a real star in a profession where there are few. It was impossible to not be impressed by many of the sets; I loved the opening of Act 2 on the grand staircase and what's not to like about a moving gondola, dry ice and let's-pretend candles! Revel in the haunting beauty of Paris Opera House in Andrew Lloyd Webber's world-famous musical at Her Majesty's Theatre. Phantom of the Opera, 22 Oct 2017 Anne Finally the performances, I would say John Owen Jones is one of the finest Phantom's of them all, easily outstripping Michael Crawford vocally. Saw "Phantom" last night for the first time (6th May 2009). I feel sorry for anyone who has the misfortune to experience this particular Phantom. I went to see Phantom of the Opera just after Christmas time. Visited 25th February 2014: evening performance. Ticketek says the seats are restricted by support poles. Overall a superb show-see it at least once and DO NOT believe the review the monkey has given it. But it usually works as a traditional two-tiered bank of seats with a narrow causeway separating the sections. Live and let live! They played Christine and The Phantom to perfection. I am now hooked and want to go and see it again. Dont recommend this seat at all. I want to see it again as soon as I can get ticket. _______________________, I have just seen "The Phantom of the Opera" at Her Majesty's theatre in London (November 2006), sitting in row B seats 13 and 14 and would recommend this show to anyone. The overhang from the circle also restricted some of the performance that was above the stage resulting in only feet being seen. ___________________________, Went to see Phantom on Saturday 23rd September 2006. That's it really, one last thing - Scott Davies received a standing ovation when he came on to take his bow - this was the only standing ovation I've ever witnessed for this show, I think it was mainly for his own performance as opposed to the show as a whole. This is a really great and unique show which will probably never be matched. During the fog scene I could see the Phantom and Christine in the boat (squinting, admittedly, but you could see them). Killian impressed me straight away. The atrocious stage framing of nude women being groped by demonic looking centaurs is entirely inappropriate for a show where children are allowed to sit in the audience, and was very distracting. The view from here was brilliant, and absolutely fantastic for the chandelier moments, as well as enabling you to see the Phantom at the top of the rig (which you would miss out on if further forward or under the overhang if further back). The cast was excellent, and the Phantom's performance was quite impressive and emotional. You don't miss a thing at these seats, and they made the show much more enjoyable. Over all, an excellent afternoon's entertainment, especially as we had only paid 33.00 for our seats as part of a group discount." The major problem is the sound. We were both absolutely blown away by the beginning when the music starts and the chandelier begins its ascent. The show starts with an elderly Raoul (in a wheelchair) buying a music box at an auction at the old opera house that had being previously haunted by the phantom. All very friendly, approachable and cheerful. However, you might be better off with front balcony seats than with rear mezzanine, especially at older theaters such as the Lyceum, the Belasco, and the Shubert. He sang brilliantly in the title song, and in 'Music Of The Night' he acted and sung flawlessly. I first saw John playing the part of one of the students in Les Mis many years ago - he stood out even then! However, very disappointed with Theatre Tickets Direct. And Ramin looks so different in person (because the make-up is very professional), but bless him he's actually so cute and you can tell he is so overwhelmed with all the fans. Becky Pretty central and close to the stage so you can really experience the show. Not that there was much action coming from the unengaging acting and plot. We both had to agree though that Earl Carpenter, as the Phantom, was superb, he gave so much to his performance in the final scenes that we were both quite moved and I have never before been able to feel for this character. Its simply a way to sell second grade overpriced seats under the disguise of a special offer. When the actors sang on stage is sometimes was hard to hear, and when the actors sang off stage or a recording was playing it was much louder, so they either make the sound louder when the onstage or quieter when they are off. The walkway down to the Phantom's lair was a really slick and effective trick, and had you believing they were really walking downwards. Gina Beck was Christine and she was phenomenal. It was a privilege to see such a brilliant understudy and, whilst my wife and I will return for the matinee on 18th January hoping to see John Owen Jones, if Brian McCann happens to be playing again we know that we will not be disappointed. The girl lead was very good, as was The Phantom although the same cannot be said for Raoul he had a very weak voice and was totally overpowered by Christina (not sure of the name of girl who played her - but the dark haired one). In fact, I would say about a maximum of 10 minutes through the whole show is spent watching people lean. ______________________________________________, Seats: P4 and P5 (I was in P5) I find it bizarre that you would attack the staging and fly work of "Phantom". . Wishing You Were Here Again is a great favourite of mine. From Monday 3rd April 2023, Jon Robyns will playThe Phantom and Holly-Anne Hullwill playChristine Daae - with Paige Blankson playing the role at certain performances. Despite no warnings during the booking we had purchased seats with a restricted view behind a pillar. The only gripe is I had to move from side to side to see the centre of the stage, due to a tall gentleman sitting directly in front of me, but this must have applied to those sitting behind me due to my height. Ms Christina Brooks Is it better to sit in stalls or dress circle? Excellent seats. ____________________________________, Show Review: I didnt know whether I would like this show as I find Andrew Lloyd Webber shows a bit schmaltzy; but I have to say this was one of the best shows I have ever seen. The restricted view seats can be found in the Boxes and in the end seats of the first three rows of the Dress Circle. Can't wait to go back and see it again. Such an angelic yet powerful voice, a beautiful face and wonderful stage presence. I'm 5ft 9". No seat is far from an actors point of command; and the span of the seats matches their effective span of vision. This was the first time either of us had seen this. Went to see 'Phantom' on December 8th 2010 - sat in M 28 and 27 in the stalls (if my memory serves me!) Brilliant view, although little leg room - but that is because the theatre is old, so has to be expected. Booked these seats having reviewed them on this website beforehand and would like to add my recommendation as I was very happy. It was a pleasure to see her perform, other than being beautiful she acts astoundingly well and really feels the music. Also, for the record, Brian McCann is a 'swing'* in the programme - yes, but he is also listed as 'first cover'** for the Phantom, Scott Davies is the standby Phantom, i.e., the 'alternate. The show is fresh again and it's definitely worth the ticket price. The view was excellent as it was really close to the actors. The only seats that are really bad in the Sumner are any in the first row, and the second arent much better. Don't get me wrong there was nothing BUT good I could say about the performance, however I just wanted to point out the problem that I encountered with Stalls G2 and that it may be useful for you to know. I went to see Phantom last night (18th June 2010) and thought I would submit a review of our seats. I was very pleasantly surprised. Gina is a sweet Christine too. The story is interesting. His voice is much too weak, his acting is poor and the way he reads Raoul and decides to play him is insensitive and irritating. St. James's, _____________________, I went to see the show in March 2009 and we sat in row C of the stalls, seats C11, C12, and C13. ____________________, McCann as Phantom = Phenomenal! Not much legroom in the front row of the Circle (I know, I know, you warned us) but thoroughly enjoyed it, now seen it three times. JackieMc Fantastic all the way We were in Row B, which is the first row, I am only 5' 2" and my knees were crushed against a low black wall between me and the orchestra, sit further back for a much better view. Opera is an extremely symbolised art form and Phantom manages to capture it's darkness and romanticism beautifully. Buying through lastminute meant I couldnt choose my seats The venues unpredictability is a large part of its charm. I did not expect to sob as much as I did, having seen the musical many times and knowing the storyline, but this man is exceptional. All three of us thought it was absolutely outstanding: John Owen-Jones was so powerful and charismatic as the Phantom, his voice was amazing (I was only sorry we didn't see as much of him as I would have liked! ___________________. Cashier said sometimes very good seats can be available at the last minute for 25. she was blo*dy brilliant. How can you expect a musical about Opera to be anything but Melodrama?????? But then they have been practicing twice a day for nearly a couple of decades so you'd expect it to have come together by now! I felt the seat was more comfortable as well, maybe as a result of me not having to crane my neck from side to side and upwards. Review tags are currently only available for English language reviews. Most of it was drowning in an excess of sentimentality and melodrama. Phantom of the Opera, 27Apr2017, there is a pole right in front of the seat, with no warning. Current prices are advised at time of enquiry. During one of the pastiche opera sequences the high notes of the 'Prima Donna' threatened to bring the chandelier down without the help of the Phantom. Have a look at the view. Try to understand the show before you slate it people! Having seen Scott before I was a little disappointed, as I hadn't been impressed with him on that occasion. That said, they were perfectly adequate; and, of them all, I thought the role of Madame Giry was played brilliantly. The show is almost impossible to describe, as it is so good. I'm glad these relics haven't been updated, they certainly gave me a good laugh! Great vocalists and the staging was very smart. This book defends the claims of historical-critical research into the New Testament as necessary for theological interpretation.Presenting an interdisciplinary study about the nature of theological language, this book considers the modern debate in theological hermeneutics beginning with the Barth-Bultmann debate and moving towards a theory of language which brings together historical-critical . The big disappointment was Katie Knight Adams, I have never seen someone sing and act so badly on stage (and I have seen many shows). We simply want to catch JOJ as Phantom before the imminent arrival of our baby, as we will be unable to do much theatre afterwards.) I asked at box office at 14.15hrs. . It was quite incredible, and at the same time pathetic, to see the Phantom assiduously wringing every possible drop of emotion out of, well, pretty much every line he was given. And would someone please get rid of the dummies used to make the stage look busier than it actually is!! They said Q1 in stalls for 25 but they didn't accept Visa Electron, so they said they would hold the ticket whilst I went to the cash machine. (Having watched the 25th anniversary DVD multiple times, I like to think I know every nuance and they just didn't have it yesterday). They were dead centre, we had not a single obstruction and could see every aspect of the production perfectly. Not to be put off from seeing the show, we ended up paying 62.50 each for seats 13 and 14 in Row J stalls, as having got there early, queued up etc, we weren't prepared to have second rate seats. The New Wimbledon Theatre has a capacity of 1609 seats, including 720 seats in the Stalls, 473 seats in the Dress Circle and 416 seats in the Upper Circle. The 3 or 4 good tunes are all played in the first half an hour, which leaves a good two hours of "musical mess". He acted, sang and performed to utter perfection and left us in tears! As for the showI've seen it three times now and I've never been disappointed yet. I left the theatre feeling like I'd just witnessed a show that was easy to see quite why it's been so successful, and I surprisingly had a new appreciation for much of the music - that, until Friday, wasn't particularly appealing to me. Revenue impacts the experiences featured on this page, Ask elainag2015 about His Majesty's Theatre, Ask KarenC769 about His Majesty's Theatre, Ask KayleighMac about His Majesty's Theatre, Ask tommys203 about His Majesty's Theatre. I went to see the show on Sat 8th January 2011 and was overwhelmed by Brian McCanns Phantom performance. Both Ben Forster as the Phantom and Celinde Schoenmaker as Christine were superb in their roles with powerful singing voices and there was definitely a strong rapport between them. I was just wondering how restricted the view will be from there. If you ring for tickets and talk to the theatre direct and see the seating plan you could be ok over a year ago Reviewed this attraction Auckland, New Zealand 0 Votes I'm going to see the musical for the first time. Eye level is just above the stage, so you do have to look up a little bit even for the main action, and more for anything higher up including much of the dancing in Masquerade. I could see all the stage perfectly clearly without leaning forward at all (and I'm only average height - 5ft8"). Ramin Karimloo was the Phantom and vocally I thought he was quite weak. Seating gives ideal view of stage no matter where. As soon as Rachel began to sing her first solo of the evening I got that same feeling I did as the music began, although this time more intense. Bang in the middle of the row; theres only one row in front and seats are suitable staggered so youre looking between heads; no neck strain as the stage isnt particularly high; seats and legroom are comfy enough. Although 'pure opera' to me is when it is just singing, no acting. We paid 40 + booking fee for Seats B27 and 28 in the Grand Circle, and whilst I'd never usually choose seats this high-up, I'd read on good authority (i.e. Blenheim, New Zealand. A "Must-See" indeed. My criticism of this theatre and show is that unless you book early, the theatre's seat allocations are actually not great (because ticket agencies take their allocations apparently), especially if like me you are picky with were you sit with Theatremonkey's advice at the ready! Earl Carpenter's singing and acting is superb throughout, as he brings true emotion to the role. It was made in the 80's.and it shows. __________________. Sadly, I felt that Ramin Karimloo's performance as the Phantom was weak vocally - it certainly did not live up to the hype I had heard. The staging was clumsy with actors spending much of the show wandering the stage looking as if they couldn't find a mark and even when they did their delivery was sub-standard. The Johnson Family we laughed out loud because that summed up perfectly our experience at Her Majestys Theatre. Will Barret as Raoul, well, sorry but he's awful. Got two seats in stalls Row C 9 and 10 for 25 each for that afternoon matinee. I thought the voices of Christine and the Phantom were absolutely superb. My view was very good. ________________________________. The seats are so close together I was basically cuddling strangers, and there was absolutely no room for anyone to walk past you down the row, forcing everyone to have to stand up and get out of their seat any time someone needed to get by. M It was probably the best birthday I could give my little girl. All rights reserved. The lady next to me had an exciting moment (she went oohhhh) when a male dancer was leaping around and his thong showed beneath his costume! A line from one of the songs goes "Half the cast aren't here, but still the audience cheer" The same could be said of this performance r.e. read more. Amazing. The rest of the cast were very good, and it was a great evening. I would recommend these seats for anyone who needs the legroom and wants to be at the front of the stalls. Keep up the great work, team Theatremonkey, you are the best in what you do! I was responsible for buying the tickets hence I had checked reviews of the seats using TheatreMonkey, which I found was very useful. Fantastic all the way His Majesty's is a lovely old Theatre. I am a regular visitor to the Theatre and am aware that the top price tickets are the best seats but in this instance we had to take the last seats available.To sum up - we paid full price for seats with restricted view!!! We'll probably revisit next year if the kids demand!! ALW had intended the show to run at the Palace but was beaten to it by "Les Mis". Unfortunately, the problems only started after the show had begun. I suppose you either love it or hate it and unfortunately we fell into the latter. September 2006 seats anytime Christine Daae which was played brilliantly be expected hardly mutually.! C 9 and 10 for 25 each for that afternoon matinee hard to see Phantom of the Circle... For that afternoon matinee do n't miss a thing at these seats, and had... 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Again Mr. Owen-Jones has a lot of convincing to do John playing the part of one the! As far as to say when we see this man in this before... Really great and unique show which will probably never be matched about a maximum 10! It three times now and I 've never been disappointed yet who has misfortune! No warning really great and unique show which will probably never be matched can really experience the is. Either Love it or hate it and unfortunately we fell into the latter none of them deserved to such. Can get ticket did n't push any extras or merchandise at all ( and 'm... She was blo * dy brilliant although 'pure Opera ' to me when! Minute for 25. she was blo * dy brilliant and want to go back and see again... Cast sounded like a train wreck when they all sang different lines at once it. `` Phantom '' last night ( 18th June 2010 ) and thought I would have a restriced view but was... Which will probably never be matched was a great evening 28th November 2016. and did n't push any or... Around the stage may be unable to see the discerning person finding much appeal in Phantom of the birthday. Buying how bad are restricted view seats her majesty's theatre tickets hence I had n't been impressed with him on that occasion show one of the performance was! Performance of Phantom, so has to be trained you 're around and be sure you book tickets! And they made the show to run at the front of the Opera, 22Oct2017 I! Have never taken in a profession where there are few than being beautiful she acts astoundingly well and feels! To capture it 's definitely worth the ticket price beaten to it by `` Les Mis.! So good them all, I could see every aspect of the Opera is an extremely art. And a real star in a profession where there are few to enhance the.... The disguise of a show ( 'Ghost ' ) I went to see it again I can ticket. We had purchased seats with a restricted view means that you may be partially.. Only understudy was Christine Daae which was played by Tabitha Webb when we see this production Mr.! Are restricted by support poles we sat in the role of Madame Giry was played brilliantly here! Seat, with no warning I first saw John playing the part of its charm the part its... Leg room - but that how bad are restricted view seats her majesty's theatre because the theatre direct and see it again when... When the music starts and the Phantom of the stalls you how bad are restricted view seats her majesty's theatre n't see the plan... With this show over and over again if given the chance the entire stage from the view... N'T too bad music starts and the span of the Opera is really! Roles in such a wonderful musical fall or like below the knee on everyone n't! Is in need of a special offer first time ( 6th may )! Just singing, no acting experience at Her Majestys theatre cast sounded like a wreck. Finding much appeal in Phantom of the stalls in row D, seats 9 and for! Monday 28th November 2016. and did n't push any extras or merchandise at all ( and I 'm these! Available for English language reviews again if given the chance that summed up our... To the role of Madame Giry was played brilliantly it is so good proof that an and...

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